18 thoughts on “Spiritual Training for Chaplaincy and Tara Service”

  1. Hartmut Sagolla

    Hi everybody, welcome to the new comment section. You can start a discussion right here about the Lojong and Mind and Mental Faculties webinars and Rimpoche’s transcripts that are posted on this site.

    Check out the new transcript “Mirror of the Mind” posted on the site.

  2. Hartmut Sagolla

    the section on the 5 omnipresent and 5 object ascertaining mental faculties is particularly relevant, also the Q and A session right after that. So it’s shorter than in How the Mind Works – very much a synopsis.
    The short Mahamudra section at the end is icing on the cake and the beginning section on mind and mental faculties in general is what we covered in the first session. So that’s a good review too

  3. We may have forgotten to point out the criteria for the Mind and Mental Faculties portion of the Chaplaincy Training exam. For the 5 Omnipresent and 5 Object Ascertaining: know 1) what it is (i.e. be able to name them), 2) the definition, and 3) know when it is lacking.

    This raises an issue about the 5 Omnipresent – if they are omnipresent, can they be lacking? What does it mean for an ‘omnipresent’ faculty to be lacking.

    Any thoughts?

  4. Hartmut Sagolla

    this is what I raised several times in my talk. I appears that at a thoughtless state of mind some of the 5 omnipresent mental faculties could be lacking, (or how about in a coma?) but they are not supposed to. Every functioning mind is supposed to have all of them. I mentioned a serial killer having no feeling. Is is lacking or impaired? So far we have only mentioned the first two. I think it will get more interesting as we go through the other 3. But it is definitely something to watch out for. Rimpoche says many times, if any of them are lacking, the mind is not functioning. But does that mean there is no mental activity at all, or a severe mental problem? Can they be partially missing or be temporarily impaired?

  5. Hartmut Sagolla

    another interesting things is the mind – body relationship. As I said in my talk, the definition of the second of the 5 omnipresent mental faculties, discrimination, is to differentiate one thing from another and Rimpoche gave the example of when it is not working: someone with Alzheimer’s hears what you say, but can’t process. (Mirror of the Mind) Now, Alzheimer’s, as it becomes clearer now, is a brain disease, which may at some time be reversible, so people may regain access to the brain. so it seems the mental faculty of discrimination is not really lacking, but the access of mind to brain. That may be the case with other “mental” illnesses as well that are actually brain diseases.

    So an interesting question is: how much difference can mental training and spiritual practice make to improving or retrieving missing or impaired mental faculties that are based on a brain disease or genetic predisposition?

  6. Lim Jit Choong

    Hi Hartmut & Kimba,

    Can you please clarify for me :

    1. Kimba commented on 5 Omnipresent factors – since they are omnipresent , can there be lacking? I observed that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso calls them all- accompanying mental factors. I, also noted that Rimpoche said that “every mind, everywhere, even a wrong, crazy mind, also has all five omnipresent mental faculties always following it.”. He also said that if any of these factors are disengaged , then big problems.

    My understanding therefore is the 5 omnipresent mental factors are always present and if some particular events like stroke, heart attack, or even coma happens, then certain of these mental factors are disengaged and therefore problems will arise. But the principal mind is still functioning. Is my understanding correct?

    My other questions are :

    1. Are these 5 omnipresent mental factors also present in the primordial mind?

    2. Does these 5 omnipresent factors dissolve during death and by the time of clear light, all these are gone?

    Kindly clarify. Thanks .

  7. Hartmut Sagolla

    Heather, the next session is this Saturday, August 13, 10 am Eastern. Above, on this site, there is a file called “Spiritual Training Chaplaincy-Tara Service”, which has the dates, topics and readings for all the upcoming sessions.

  8. Hartmut Sagolla

    Jit Choong,

    I think you are on the right track. Omnipresent means they are there with any functioning mind. If not, there is a big problem. Like I quoted Rimpoche using Alzheimer’s as example and the mental faculty of discrimination not functioning, which is because the mind can’t access the brain. If brain functioning were to be restored, the mind would start working again with the mental faculties. Coma is similar.

    But perhaps this is also a 2 way street. If we get into destructive behavioral patterns, like strong anger, then the brain will even change accordingly and create the corresponding neural pathways that then make it easier to get angry again. Likewise, through certain behavior we enjoy and get addicted to mentally, a physical addiction may follow, like to adrenalin, dopamine, etc,. In that way the mind and mental faculties create changes in the brain.

    As for primordial mind and mental faculties being present, that’s similar to my question to Rimpoche if the clear light mind has the 5 omnipresent mental faculties. Rimpoche’s answer was that they are there, though not activated.

    Something to think about. Maybe the subtle mind and the gross mind are not separate minds, but layers of the same mind. So the mind has the mental faculties and when conditions are right they become engaged.
    Just thinking aloud………..

  9. Thanks Halmut. Very interesting ” your thinking aloud” thoughts. It is in line with Rimpoche’s answer that the 5 omnipresent mental faculties are there in the clear light mind, though not activated. Many thanks for the clarification and for sharing.

  10. Hartmut Sagolla

    well, I may be wrong, just trying to get my head around it. Anybody else has a point of view on this? Otherwise, bring it up at the next session this Saturday, August 13, with Mark in the second hour of the 10 am – 12 pm webinar

  11. Colleen retherford

    On the tong-Len topic: Rimpoche summarizes the first layer of tong-Len, 3×3, around p96-97. First is three givings: body, wealth and virtue. Second is three takings,: suffering, it’s causes, and imprints of delusions. That’s fine. Third is three ways of giving and taking. I’m not clear on those three. Anyone know for sure? Thank So!

  12. Colleen, I read the transcript slightly differently. Rimpoche says the first layer of tong-len has 3×2 main points–three points of giving and three points of taking, which you listed above. The third point is to mount these 3×2 points of giving and taking on the breath, i.e. give with exhalation and take with inhalation. Hope this helps.

  13. Thank you Kimba, Brenda and Mark for the talks. All three of you were inspiring. Thank you for the recordings too. I was not able to attend on the actual day of the session because of circumstances.

  14. Greg Supa Corner

    I asked R about the mind being referred to as possessing the 5 omnipresents and 5 object ascertaining and whether it was a ‘human’ mind and he said ‘yes’. In other words, I don’t think they manifest unless the basis of the aggregates of a human are present. Doesn’t contradict what he said about the clear light mind and the fact that they are not yet activated but it does make sense in that the mind we are observing and categorizing is none other than our own!???. Thanks to all for your efforts at presenting the topics – R has amazing skill in getting us all to really learn and absorb the teachings???

Comments are closed.

Scroll to Top